TRUMP...

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Re: TRUMP...

Postby myrubyshoes » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:00 pm

american invasions since 1980 in which american soldiers have killed or been killed

Iran (1980, 1987-1988), Libya (1981, 1986, 1989, 2011), Lebanon (1983), Kuwait (1991), Iraq (1991-2011, 2014-), Somalia (1992-1993, 2007-), Bosnia (1995), Saudi Arabia (1991, 1996), Afghanistan (1998, 2001-), Sudan (1998), Kosovo (1999), Yemen (2000, 2002-), Pakistan (2004-) and now Syria

creating constant wars and breeding hatred and enemies
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Re: TRUMP...

Postby Deepwater » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:44 pm

Banjoman wrote:(But it doesn't matter. You could be French or German or anything....it would make no difference.)


Correct, makes no difference.

As I've said, I agree to disagree. Seems churlish to refer to things from over a century ago, I mean how far back does the blame game go. A long way for some I would imagine. Two guys drawing a line in the sand during a period of colonial carve ups has obviously had knock on effects but that horse has long since bolted.

Attributing every woe to international exploration companies is all too easy, and lazy. These big bad companies who control and suppress, keep water powered cars a secret and kill off the inventors. Wreak untold havoc in every region they operate, that's fiction for the birds.

It would appear the consensus is step back, leave the people of Syria to sort it out themselves fair and square, only it's not fair and square.
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Re: TRUMP...

Postby Banjoman » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:08 pm

Deepwater wrote:
Banjoman wrote:(But it doesn't matter. You could be French or German or anything....it would make no difference.)


Correct, makes no difference.

As I've said, I agree to disagree. Seems churlish to refer to things from over a century ago, I mean how far back does the blame game go. A long way for some I would imagine. Two guys drawing a line in the sand during a period of colonial carve ups has obviously had knock on effects but that horse has long since bolted.


No it's not churlish. It's mandatory. It's a mere century, for christ's sake.
How far back does it go? All the way to The Fall, if you ask me. But that's a complicated story.
Five hundred years would be plenty. That covers the centuries of European piracy and marauding, the wholesale murder and pillage that characterized the Spanish assault on the New World, the rise of the joint stock companies out of the loot of the first British colonies in Ireland and Virginia, and eventually India, etc., the Industrial revolution, so-called, that led to the consolidation of the new money, the bourgeoisie/rentier/banker/ class into the modern One Percent. And drove everyone else into urban squalor and the satanic mills. It's been a long continuous process of....well, psychopathy, to be honest. But you can trace it. And contrary to what you're claiming, the trail is not faint, the evidence is not fuzzy. It's plain what has happened in that time.
To say that the horse has long since bolted is the easy, lazy answer of someone who never lost a loved one, or a culture, or an identity, or a patrimony to the onslaught of capitalism, someone who is not thinking, on April 5, about where next month's rent is coming from.


Deepwater wrote: Attributing every woe to international exploration companies is all too easy, and lazy. These big bad companies who control and suppress, keep water powered cars a secret and kill off the inventors. Wreak untold havoc in every region they operate, that's fiction for the birds.


Apart from your red herrings (water powered cars....) it's actually completely and specifically true. Corporations (let's call them that, shall we?) are monsters. By decree. They are charged with seeking profit like blind robots. They are people, just like you and me, except they don't have to breathe the air or drink the water. They dig the spice, anywhere, in war zones among the bodies of the dead, under the houses of the innocent, in the gorgeous green places of the world. They leave destruction and environmental damage in their wakes and they destroy people and cultures into the bargain. That's the energy sector, the mining sector, the forestry sector, the agriculture sector. They turn everything to shit for miles around.

Deepwater wrote:It would appear the consensus is step back, leave the people of Syria to sort it out themselves fair and square, only it's not fair and square.


This is borderline whining, I'm afraid. Like a little girl I know. Nobody has said that. Anywhere. The consensus. LOL
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Re: TRUMP...

Postby Deepwater » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:29 pm

I appreciate you making my point.

It's always nice to come across a person with chips on both shoulders to keep them balanced.

To attempt to continue to blame today's issues on the past is 100% the lazy option. It's a crutch for the desperate.
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Re: TRUMP...

Postby Banjoman » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:40 am

I was hoping you'd be back. I was starting to feel a bit like I had overdone it with the bludgeon, as I sometimes do. I had planned some sort of rapprochement, trying to be a little nicer, y'see, but now, of course I can't....

I appreciate you making my point.


Not only did I not make your point, you didn't make your point.

It's always nice to come across a person with chips on both shoulders to keep them balanced.


Really? Chips on my shoulders. Well, that's a nice self-serving ready-made cliche. Such cynical dismissiveness. A sweet guy like me taking time out of my busy morning mopping out the cell block to counter your casual invocation of violence by the American state. (I'd love to see some of that "worlds policeman" philosophy sometime soon. Hopefully DJT has a bit more backbone than that lily livered fellow he took over from.)
To attempt to continue to blame today's issues on the past is 100% the lazy option. It's a crutch for the desperate.


But see, YOU SAID THIS TWICE BEFORE. Let's move the logic forward a bit. I will ask the following question: Whence, and under whose auspices, comes this rule that the past doesn't count? It's a ludicrous and completely unwarranted assertion. And here (again) you've said it without providing the slightest reasoning or evidence. Your opinion is there, only. The least interesting thing. What is required is argument, ffs, discourse, evidence! As a European (of some indeterminate flavour) you should know better, comrade.
Saying things like "It's a crutch for the desperate..." see, that goes nowhere. It's just insult.
The past holds and is now giving up enormous amounts of information about who we have been and what we have done as races and as a species, among other things, thanks to the vast analytic capabilities of computers and networks. It's no different than astronomy; looking at the past using increasingly precise instruments. Your attempts to trivialize the value of seeking patterns of development in the history of political and social systems and digging for evidence and assembling pictures, seem extraordinarily reactionary to me.
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Re: TRUMP...

Postby Deepwater » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:14 am

Banjoman wrote:It's just insult.


Yes, too childish of me.
Banjoman wrote: Like a little girl I know


Banjoman wrote:Not only did I not make your point, you didn't make your point.


HELP PEOPLE WHO CANT HELP THEMSELVES. Glaringly obvious.

Banjoman wrote:The past holds and is now giving up enormous amounts of information about who we have been and what we have done as races and as a species, among other things, thanks to the vast analytic capabilities of computers and networks. It's no different than astronomy; looking at the past using increasingly precise instruments. Your attempts to trivialize the value of seeking patterns of development in the history of political and social systems and digging for evidence and assembling pictures, seem extraordinarily reactionary to me.

Past relevant as a learning tool for improvement = Yes

Past relevant as a tool to demonise and infer guilt on whole groups of society on the basis of decisions made generations ago = No

Past relevant as an excuse for general dissatisfaction with ones lot in life = No

To those being bombed or gassed today = Not much help whatsoever

We can freely ping pong messages back and forward on the merits of help, and further to that, what "help" actually is. I've plenty spare time on my hands.

We don't make the decisions.


[
Banjoman wrote:argument, ffs, discourse, evidence


What I'd hope would be prepared in advance by the professionals, how long does it take though?

There's been more outrage in the public spectrum over a ridiculously misjudged Pepsi advert than the gassing of Syrian kids. Just about sums things up.
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